(no subject)

[lwoodbloo]

Surfed into someone's LJ where they were talking about relationships and what counts as "cheating".

Tell me what you think.

Comments

[penchantnyc.livejournal.com]

assuming that u r in a committed relationship:

physically? kissing, and anything involving private parts. so, some girl rubs you off while u r clothed, to me, thats cheating, and messy. and no1 was even naked.

emotionally is a whole other bag. Having a relationship beyond friends with som1 else is cheating.

[lwoodbloo.livejournal.com]

I think where I fall here is, If I'm going to be in a "relationship" with someone, I don't want to be with anyone else. Anything but isn't a relationship to me.

[eldyn.livejournal.com]

What if you are in an open committed relationship?

[cheshire23.livejournal.com]

Involving private parts as cheating, I can see.

But kissing? *LOL* By that definition, my husband and I cheated on each other at our own wedding! There's a kissing game popular amongst my SCA friends that got going rather nicely at our reception, and we also decided to shut up the stupid glasses-clinking tradition by each kissing a same-sex member of our wedding party rather than each other. I'd say one or the other of us (if not both) probably kissed darn near everyone reasonably our own age and not a blood relative. But that's us, and we're both reasonably non-jealous and were in some ways making a political point about being married but not heterosexual (both of us are bi).

[fallenfromgrace.livejournal.com]

Cheating is having any kind of sexual or romantically emotional relationship with someone other than you SO. Period. That includes online relationships, phone relationships, regular in-person relationships, whatever. Any type of relationship where sex/sexual contact and/or romantic involvement is present.

[lwoodbloo.livejournal.com]

You use the word relationship a lot in your definition. What if the contact was outside a relationship? A pickup of some sort? Or just a drunken grope in a corner?

See, being in a relationship to me means not acting on that.

[fadedjae.livejournal.com]

I concur.

[eldyn.livejournal.com]

What if the rules of your relationship allow sexual or romantically emotional relationships with someone other then you SOs?

And what do you consider sexual? Is kissing sexual? Touching? What about looking "in that way"?

[ludicn.livejournal.com]

the definition if cheating is based entirely upon what's agreed on within the relationship. bottom line, never assume anything. communication is key.

[ntang.livejournal.com]

Yep, I have to second that. I've got my own personal standards, but any time you have two (or more...!) people in a relationship there has to be some negotiation, some discussion, some agreement.

[aliasa.livejournal.com]

ah, the cheating topic ... for me, in an exclusive relationship, i define it as: if you date, kiss or have sex or anything remotely related to physical/emotional intimacy with another person besides your SO, that's cheating! guilt is a great indicator of it.

i also had a relatively recent lj entry about it here.

[lwoodbloo.livejournal.com]

Y'see, I think you and I both qualify the word "relationship" with "exclusive". If I'm committed enough to you to use the word "relationship" in concert with what we have, I don't think seeing someone else romantically while being in that relationship is kosher. But that's me.

[ex-sodiumlig110.livejournal.com]

I think having sexual contact with another person in the bounds of a monogamous relationship is cheating. Been there, done that. :-/

[lwoodbloo.livejournal.com]

*nods* Again, thank you for your insight.

relationship dynamics

[panthergirl5182.livejournal.com]

it depends on the relationship... if it's a strictly monogomous relationship, doing much with someone else is cheating (keep in mind, i'm not talking like going to the bar or a movie with a friend). if it's mostly monogomous with room to flirt, then you can flirt.

a lot of relationships have a polo dynamic with rules to how the outside play goes... breaking those rules is cheating.

Re: relationship dynamics

[lwoodbloo.livejournal.com]

Rules are good. But I guess I'm also thinking about what if you haven't established a policy on a specific issue.

[dawnstar.livejournal.com]

I don't think cheating is something that can be universally defined but rather is something each couple should discuss VERY early in the relationship and decide on for themselves. For some, cyberplay is cheating; for others, it's foreplay.

It's one of the reasons that communication is SO important in a lasting relationship - if you don't know what each person thinks of as "out of bounds," it's way too easy to cross the line.

[lwoodbloo.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. Why, then, be in a relationship if you're going to go elsewhere for gratification?

[meinleben78.livejournal.com]

Personally, I don't even think you even have to have a commitment with someone to cheat on them. I think if you have an emotional or physical relationship romantically or lustfully with more than one person at a time then you're a cheater. You don't even have to meet someone to use them to cheat with, either. I'd take an inappropriate online relationship the wrong way and consider it cheating just as I would a physical relationship. Lemme put it this way. Most anything you'd get upset about your significant other/crush/lust bunny doing with another person is cheating. Always put the shoe on the other foot and see how it fits.

[tinylilron.livejournal.com]

dating 2 people at the same time

[eldyn.livejournal.com]

Whao, no way is that cheating! If they are aware of it and consent to it, it is in no way cheating!

[listenshesings.livejournal.com]

granted I'm only a month into my first real relationship, I agree with fallenfromgrace, those are my personal standards. however, I will agree that the same standards are not universal and it depends greatly on the circumstances of the relationship.

[meritofstars.livejournal.com]

well... being someone that's been cheated on, i certainly have a few parameters. i think that it's important to discuss boundaries at the beginning of a relationship. some people are okay with sharing kisses hello and goodbye but for other people, that's not acceptable. i personally think that any intimate activity with another person with your partner's consent is cheating. kissing to sex, and everything in between. although i also think that it's possible to be emotionally cheating on a partner by forming a deep emotionally intimate connection with someone else. especially if that isnt what you have with your current partner. cyber sex and phone sex are kind of up in the air. sometimes i think it's cheating other times i'm not so sure. although i think if i found out my partner was doing that with someone i would be upset. i dont think that it's difficult to remain faithful and it is certainly one of the expectations that i have in a relationship. being cheated on is incredibly painful and difficult.

[eldyn.livejournal.com]

You brought up a good point about communication. You need to communicate the level and rules of your relationship or at least what you feel you relationship level is BEFORE someone gets hurt. If the rules of your relationship allow for cyber sex or phone sex, then it would not be cheating, but if they don't then it would be, that's simple.

I think most of the confusion is the fact that people don't state the rules or assume that the other person has the same ideas about the rules.

[eldyn.livejournal.com]

Whoa, looks like you have a lot of closed minds here so far. Cheating is breaking the rules of your relationship. That's all. If you are in a monogamous closed relationship then most of the people would be correct, however there are a lot of relationship structures and the rules may vary!

[lwoodbloo.livejournal.com]

I guess, for me anyway, this is a rumination on relationships as well.

What motivates an open or polyamorous relationship?

Cheating is...

[ladyjendifi.livejournal.com]

Doing anything with someone in which you do not feel comfortable telling your partner. For some people, that's a hug or kiss. For others it's sex. Sometimes it's sharing an emotional moment.

That's my measure.

Cheating is ...

[rosequartz1963.livejournal.com]

a complex mechanism that can be defined externally (between 2 people or within a societal understanding) or internally (based upon personal beliefs, self-expectations, personal emotions, self-esteen, etc). We can say that cheating is breaking the rules, deceiving or taking advantage of a partner by being intimate with someone else. The "forbidden" intimacy could be something big (like an affair), something small (like sharing secrets over coffee), or something in between (like a hug that lasts too long), etc. Tied in with the concept of cheating are concepts like guilt and shame, so that adds to the complexity.

[mistressjennie.livejournal.com]

I'd have to second both of these statments:

eldyn
"Cheating is breaking the rules of your relationship."

ladyjendifi
"Doing anything with someone in which you do not feel comfortable telling your partner."

I have a history of getting cheated on. Every man who has cheated on me has known I would not be okay with it, which made it cheating to me. Then he feels the need to confess, tell me how amazing I am, and break up with me. Thanks guys. You're doing wonders for my psyche.

My friend Ben and I had been *very* flirty and very close friends for a few years before he started dating a girl who would become my ex-friend. She didn't like the way Ben and I were with one another, and I guess I can't blame her. There were hugs, mild petting (all above the belt), and tons of sexual tension and flirting. We never so much as kissed, but to the outside world, we looked hot and heavy. My realationship with him was very intimate, dispite this lack of kissing or sex, in some ways the most intimate relationship I've ever had. He was the person I confided in, whose shoulder I cried on, and who could tell what was wrong the second I walked in a room. And, he cared. Really cared how I felt, and what was going on in my life. In short, he was my best friend.

I suppose it was inevitable that I did have feelings for him. And because of this I felt guilty when we flirted and petted. I felt like we were both "guilty". But I was also angry. Ben and I were friends before she dated him, and she knew what our relationship was like. She knew I was in love. How dare she get mad when she knew what she was walking into? How dare she date my best friend and the guy I was crazy about? I don't know... Guess time has mellowed it, but only slightly. Yet the guilt gets worse over time, feeling like I did something that made me feel like I was wrong and being naughty... In short, I now feel like it was cheating, with me being the other woman, while at the time, I felt like she was...

I'm sorry this has become a ramble.

[lwoodbloo.livejournal.com]

Ramble all you like, Jenniegirl.

Something that gets problematic when defining cheating:

[cheshire23.livejournal.com]

For a lot of people (myself included, in the past), the issue is one of intent rather than of the physical actions involved. I find that this comes up most often with backrubs and with cyberflirting/cybersex.

I think that what most people should work on figuring out what, for them: is always OK to do with other people (and you'd be out the door if it wasn't OK), is open to negotiation on whether it's OK or not, or is never OK.

I only have ONE "never OK": unprotected sex outside a closed group that has tested negative for the whole list of creepycrawlies out there. I hope that needs no explanation.

My list of "had better always be OK": hugs, general gestures of affection (head on shoulder, etc), and spending time alone together with whatever friend I damn well please, regardless of gender, sexual preference, or past history I have with the person. One person I was dating was booted out of my life because he was obsessively jealous of my (GAY!) male best friend; another caused a fight by complaining that I still say "I love you" on the phone to another very dear friend that I dated a long time ago (hi, waterfaery! *grin*).

Anything else is negotiable. In my relationship, it breaks down into "things that are always OK, so don't worry" and "things you'd darn well better check with the other person about before doing!" Anything involving private parts or removal of clothing for obviously sexual purposes is in the second category, but most other gestures of affection are in the first. But that's just us. I'm not saying your line needs to be the same as mine, I'm just asking that you know where it is and respect everyone's boundaries. (Not you personally, Elwood, "you" as generic reader.)

Re: Something that gets problematic when defining cheating:

[lwoodbloo.livejournal.com]

I like that last paragraph. That's very much how I'm feeling about the whole sitch.

[head.livejournal.com]

There's a whole lot of comments on this post, so I'm probably going to end up repeating what someone else has already said, but!

There is no set definition on what cheating is other than: Cheating is defined by the people in the relationship.

When two people get into a relationship, they should talk about it and decide for themselves what is allowed and what is not allowed. For some, holding hands with another person would be cheating, while for others, they may only count vaginal intercourse as cheating. Some people are in open relationships, so perhaps they wouldn't consider anything as cheating.. on the other hand, they may decide that going past a certain point is cheating because they choose to keep a certain act as something just the two of them can share. One of the reasons that some couples have problems is that they don't define what cheating is to them. They may have different opinions on it, and if they don't come to a compromise, then one might do something that they feel is not cheating, and the other may feel that it is cheating.

another two cents to the jar

[violet-shade.livejournal.com]

Given the state of my own relationships for the past several years, I can only say that I have never felt like I was cheating if all the participants involved knew and accepted the situation. Even if afterward someone told me they had changed their mind. I felt bad that it hurt them, but they knew, and they could have said something, so it wasn't cheating.
Actually, the only part that has made me really uncomfortable is that until recently I had never heard of anyone else in a stable, open, poly relationship. Of course, then I got to college, and a whole new world opened up. Recently, I've been in a physical/emotional relationship with Jamie, who is much easier to term my boyfriend than anyone else, and with Austin, with whom I've had an incredible amount of tension for the past year or so. And although Jon and I technically are broken up, we're actually emotionally closer than we've been in a while. And all of them know about it, and all of them agree. The terms of any relationship I'm in are basically that I love them, and that doesn't mean I won't love anyone else, and if they don't want to stay with me it's their choice. I am not about to force anyone into anything.
So there it is. I'm basically restating Eldyn's and LadyJendifi's definitions, but with an example *smile*

Maybe a little late, but...

[songblaze.livejournal.com]

Well, here's my two cents.

I've got to agree with what people have said, about the exact terms being agreed upon by the people in the relationship.

Now, I'm only interested in closed/monogamous relationships, and these are /my/ particular rules - not to say it's any sort of universal, but this is what /I/ want in a relationship.

Emotionally? As long as it's not a /romantic/ bond, hey, have your friends and have 'em as close as you want. I have some very close friends, and if you get on my case about 'em, you're going to be taking a hike, got it? If you start feeling things about someone else, maybe we need to reconsider the state of our relationship, or maybe you and I aren't cut out to be together. Either way, communication is a must.

Physically? Platonic only, please. Again on the no-romantic stuff. Now...the stuff /I/ define as platonic starts with one important thing: 'private' areas are generally covered still, and are /not/ included in areas that should be touched. Touches that are intended to arouse? Not good. Which means things like nibbling on someone, and kissing non-facial areas are definite no-nos. I haven't quit figured out how I feel about kissing on the lips, but I'm inclined to say it's probably cheating. Kissing the cheek? Sure, why not. I tend to reserve that for /very/ close friends, but there are a few I do that with. Other things...back-rubs, platonic snuggling/cuddling, rubbing sore muscles, scalp massage, etc...as long as the intent is platonic, those are okay. And I tickle the hell outta my friends, so you'd better believe that's safe too.

I think I covered all the bases there...

~Blaze